Rodney Veal is a multidisciplinary artist and one of Dayton’s most passionate advocates for the arts. In his role at ThinkTV & CET, he’s known for hosting the podcast Rodney Veal’s Inspired By and the TV series The Art Show, as well as co-producing the 2024 documentary Willis “Bing” Davis: Reach High & Reach Back. As a self-described “art nerd,” Rodney truly has his finger on the pulse of the region’s dynamic arts and culture scene.
Tune in for this fascinating conversation to learn how Rodney has become one of the most influential arts voices in our region.
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Episode Transcript:
Evelyn Ritzi: Welcome to Creating the Future. I’m Evelyn Ritzi,
David Bowman: and I’m David Bowman
Evelyn: and today we’re joined by independent choreographer, interdisciplinary artist, podcast host, television host, documentary producer. I could go on and on. It’s Rodney Veal. Rodney, welcome to the pod.
Rodney Veal: Well thanks for having me, guys. I really do appreciate that.
Evelyn
So glad to have you.
Rodney
Okay, I’m like, I’m sharing my world. I’m like, I’m on this side of it, as opposed to actually interviewing people. So this is kind of like, wow, this is what it feels like.
Evelyn
Okay, all right, you’re the special guest.
Rodney
I feel honored. I’m very honored.
Evelyn
We’re glad to have you on Well, first of all, I mean, you’re just such an amazing ambassador for the arts, and you are an amazing host, and are on the other side of the table usually, but today, we really want to hear about you and shine the spotlight on you. Can you take us back to the beginning of your journey and what it was like growing up, and, did you always know you wanted to pursue a creative career path?
Rodney
Wow, okay, I feel like I’m on the couch all good. I’m like, Well, honestly, I I was always a creative child from day one, there was not a, I don’t think there was a moment of hesitation that was about creativity, because, because I’m a visual artist, really originally, as I started as a child and and I do remember the first thing that I ever drew that it was in kindergarten, and my kindergarten teacher posted it up on the wall for Parents Day. It’s a bird of paradise. Because you asked me the question like, like, Do you know what a bird of paradise is? And I said, why? Yes, I do. Because I looked it up in the encyclopedia. I was a very snarky little child. I know my stuff, don’t question me, lady, but that was like, that was a real and my parents were like, Huh? And so they just, I’m very lucky and blessed of two awesome parents who endorse that creativity. They, they it was just never, there was not a holiday or birthday where I didn’t receive art supplies. Like, it was always about art supplies or books and so and I was off to the races. I mean, that’s, I mean, that’s my fondest memory. Like, I remember that image because I captured detail. I was, I was a detail oriented artist, and then I just kept going. I mean, I just, I don’t think it was even a question I had. I think the only time I doubted that I was going to be an artist was when I was in college, when I went my first semester, had a really horrible drawing one teacher, clearly he had issues. Made everyone feel horrible about their existence and their creativity. And I just thought, oh, is this really the world for me? And I remember I call my mom, and this is in the 80s, so there was no cell phones, yeah, to call collect. So this is really putting an age on me.
David
She took the call, though,
Rodney
yeah, she listened to me cry about how I was devastated by this critique. And she said, Well, you can always pursue another major, but you can’t drop this one. And I said, Well, I was pretty good at political science, you know, civics, I’ll do that. And she hung up on me, so it was, you’re on your own. So it was like I went, marched over the place I and I just added that as a dual degree, and I just pursued visual arts and political science. And then somewhere in there, I took dance as a PE requirement. I did, I did. I really, I’m thinking back, oh my god. This is really making me think. I’m like, oh my god, yeah, I took dance as a PE requirement. Eastern Michigan University go home with the fighting eagles. Now that’s their name. And I guess I showed a physical aptitude for movement, and I understand music and musicality. And I kind of did that as a side gig, because it was like, well, they’re going to use me and I’m going to dance. Why not? I kept I just, you know, it was that kid who just guy, who just, he said, I could do it. I just tried it and did it so I pursued. That’s how I all that’s how it all began. Just constantly, like all he shows aptitude, here, here’s the supplies, here’s the materials. Go play. Go play. I was always the, I was the go to kid for go play in the creative room. Yeah. Well,
David
So throughout your career, you’ve combined different art forms, dance, visual art, writing, media technology in really creative and often unexpected ways. And you kind of alluded to that like in you know what you’re talking about. Well, what’s inspired you to sort of be that go play, to be that explorer and just go experiment with different mediums.
Rodney
Honestly, I think it’s my parents. I think it was, I had parents who didn’t say no. They knew, though, they said no to certain things, but they didn’t say no to creativity. They didn’t say no to like the fact that I would ask for books for Christmas. I mean, What? What? You know, yeah, my fourth grader is saying, I want books for you know, I don’t want a basketball I don’t want sports equipment. I want a book. I want art supplies. I want paint. So having I was so definite about what I wanted to pursue, and having as a parents who just kind of gave permission to it, they never and my parents, I love them to death, and I’m sure they’re just so they were so confused. Like, who was this kid who, like, wants to make art, constantly reading. I mean, I did participate in sports begrudgingly. I mean, my brother was an athlete, not me, and so it was all-city Football, so and track and everything else. I was like, oh, God, so we’re like, well, family of overachievers, like, if you found your lane, my parents supported you, yeah. And so having that kind of support made it easy. It made it easy to kind of, why not? It was I never questioned not. Why not? I mean, so I would just pick up. You know, no one taught me oil painting technique. I kind of read about it, and I tried it, and I just bought the supplies and materials and did and materials and did it myself. And then, well, I’ll pick up a camera, I’ll figure out how to take, you know, photos, and, like, you know, so it was always just my own curiosity, like, how does this work? How does this How does this kind of need, like technology and devices. I mean, we’re talking pre-computer, yeah. So everything was analog back in the day, just my, you know, painting on canvas, stretching canvases, kind of teaching it to myself and seeing it and like looking at other artists and reading about them. So imagine some like fourth graders reading about Picasso and reading about art movements, yeah, the Renaissance and the Rococo period, carrying a big, thick book stack, yeah? Basically, yeah, I was that nerdy kid. And that’s kind of how that inspiration for, like, just pursuit of creativity, because that’s what creativity is. It’s play. It’s a certain amount of play, and then it’s that play, then turns into sort of an intellectual exercise. It’s like, you know, well, okay, I’m exploring. I’m getting my hands gritty and dirty, and I’m kind of doing this thing. I’m moving. But was it trying to, like, what could I be saying with this and like, what is this saying to me? Why is this particular color, a series of colors, appealing to me? Why am I reading these articles about migration? Why am I reading these books about icebergs and ice flows? So I’m thinking about time, and then, like you just kind of dig deep, dive into it, and how do you translate that into what it is that you’re trying to make and so I can’t think of any other way. And so that was always the basis, I mean, so I used everything. I used everything at my disposal, like everything, and even the dance, which is really unusual, because I, you know, I actually ended up pursuing dance after college first, you know. So that was a real second company of the Dayton Valley, who knew this kid who barely, I mean, didn’t start dancing till was 18 as all of a sudden in a second company of a ballet company. So, yeah, and
Evelyn
That’s, I mean, I met Rodney when he was in his dance era. He was one of my first dance teachers. Yeah, introduced me to movements of modern dance and jazz and even musical artists like Britney Spears and Ceelo Green. And would you tell me, though, yeah, I was a very sheltered child, so yeah, he would make mixed CDs for class, and be like, can I please have the mix CD after class?
Rodney
Because it was it I wanted them to be. My students would be just as curious and inspired as I was, and if I could show and embody that enthusiasm for something that you may not be comfortable with. I mean, jazz and modern, in your young and sheltered.
Evelyn
Yeah, we were all ballet students,
Rodney
And that hair tight in that bun. And so this notion of freedom of movement expression, I mean, that’s that’s asking a lot of a child, but you have to also, but you have to embody, you have to. And so when you embody it, they’re more willing to go along with it. And I know what it could do for them. And even if it doesn’t lead to a career in dance, or it doesn’t lead it shows them that to be open, to be like. Right, ultimately, to be creative is to be open. You’re vulnerable, you’re open, you’re exposing yourself to what the world can input into you. And so I tried to, I tried that as my teaching pedagogy. I didn’t realize that that was what I was doing until I went to grad school, and I’m like, Oh, let me codify this so now I understand what this process is. And so,
Evelyn
yeah, that stuck with me. I’d say for sure.
David
Yeah, I like that notion too. I mean several things, but we live in a world that’s so very linear, and everything has to be for an outcome, always right in a predefined outcome. And what you’re describing is play, right? And do this even if you’re terrible at it, but maybe you’ll learn something from it, or, like, it might inform something else that you’re good at. Or it just like, to me, that’s such a fascinating thing. And like, the notion of play and creativity for itself is, that’s a really, it doesn’t show up well in a spreadsheet, right? No. And it’s like, you get the miracle out of the other end of it.
Rodney
And you can’t explain it to parents who want you to know, yeah, so be self-sufficient.
David
That’s where I what started me thinking of that. It’s like your parents, and you talking about, you know, my parents just embraced this, and they would give me these paints and these paints and these tools and these things and tell and like, just encouraged me to just go do it, or, like, just figure it out.
Rodney
Even if they didn’t understand it. I mean, they would see the materials. They would see the things that I would ask for, and they would see the books. Like, use books everywhere, and magazines. They were like, he’s just digesting information. And I realize now looking back, I was just like a sponge. I was absorbing as much information as humanly possible at the world, you know, in Dayton, Ohio. I mean, I’m a native Daytonian, so that that sort of absorption in the creative process is also the willingness, like I said, that vulnerability and openness, but it’s also that ability to risk failure failing. I was so my concept of failing is really bizarre and compares another. People get treat failure as catastrophic. Like, if it doesn’t work, it’s like, oh, it’s catastrophic. We’re the doom and gloom. Like, is it really? Is it really that bad? Like, no, it’s not. It isn’t because the sun rises the next day. There’s something that can be gleaned from it, the experience. And so I never saw it as a thing. And also, too, if you have the flip side of parents that were like that, that also meant that they were unfailingly honest. They will let you know, like bad idea or and I clearly, I was not a musician. My mom said, not your skill set, you put that guitar away, but to other things, she said, Yes, and so that I knew that you had the basis of that kind of brutal honesty, yeah, then it allows for it was never to put me down. It was just to say that’s not your skill set, but this is your skill set, or that you do this over here, like transaction, yeah, yeah, as opposed to completely just running amok. Yeah, there was no running amok, not in Sherman and Sherman and Lois home running amok. But there was definitely the opportunity to just to authentically be you, yeah, in that realm, in that sense. And I was an artist. I was just creative from the get go, and I’m as I’m coming, I’m coming around the bin on 60 so this is a real sort of like, you’re starting to think about life like the life you’ve had. Oh yeah, you’ve done nothing else, but this, there is no surgery, there’s a law, law degree coming to my future. This is it. I am in the arts for a minute, till the minute I drop dead.
Evelyn
So you’re in it. Yeah, something I always love to ask creative people is about their daily routine and maybe any like, creative rituals you have. I know you’re obviously a big reader. I know you take walks daily and sometimes narrate those on Facebook, which is really fun to tune into.
Rodney
It’s like the last little 15 minutes of the walk. Yes, a routine. Um, a lot of people will be really shocked at the fact that I wake up at 5, 6 o’clock every morning without an alarm clock. It just and, okay, I’m up. And once I start, I start. And my first, the absolute first number one ritual, make the bed. That’s the one I have control over. One thing, the bed is made. I did one action. And I know there was a famous general who talked about that, but I didn’t realize that that was what I was doing. And I’m like, Oh, you’ve codified what I do. Like that you had to have control of at least one thing that really works and and that was and that. Morning rituals that and then alone time in the morning to read that’s absolutely I’ve got to read something, something I hadn’t thought about, or something that pops up in the news feed from New York Times, or, god knows what else I follow on digital. I mean, I follow a lot of things. And then a walk, which is great every other day, is a walk, just to kind of get the body going. Because, you know, not as physically active dancing, performing as I’m 60 so, but I’m still performing. I still have a thing I got to do in couple weeks. Just that sense of constantly all the things, all the if everything I do in my day is towards this common goal, it’s not, it’s it’s not a bad thing. It’s not a horrible thing. So therefore, it’s going to be, well, the walking is going to keep my body mobile, my agile. The reading is going to give me information. It’s going to kind of spark some creative thoughts about how to make the art that I’m making, and and then making the bed just gives me structure and order. And it’s like, and, and I just kind of go, and once it starts, it just doesn’t stop. I mean, it will just, and I’m okay with that. And everybody goes, what are you gonna slow down? Like, there’s no slowing down. I don’t understand what that is. What there’s no retirement. There’s because this is not a conventional life.
David
I mean, if you love what you’re doing, why would you stop doing like, yeah,
Rodney
Why would it be like, and I can’t wait to get out of this, you know, no, there’s, there are things to explore, the things to play with, kind of discover…
David
Yeah, do you find that? So as I’m thinking through, like, how you’re describing that there’s sort of, like an intake of ideas, right? So you wake up, you make the bed, which is sort of a, all right, I’ve got control things. I can check a box, right? Yeah. All right. Now I’m gonna ingest lots of info and ideas, and then I’m gonna go for a walk, right? And that’s where it ruminates. Like, do you find that?
Rodney
Like, absolutely, that’s where it starts to kind of go, I start to kind of visualize movement sometimes, or I’m still, because I am a visual, it’s really interesting that I’m still making visual pieces and work on top of the performative movement based artwork. So, I mean, like surrounding both worlds and so, you know, I’m thinking, Well, you know, and because I work with found materials, paper, I’m weaving paper in the strips and creating large mosaic patterns from things that people discard, magazines, posters, you name it, books. I love reading the Planned Parenthood Book Fair and getting those $10 bags of books, I’m like, I’m gonna rip you to Charettes. Here we go. We’re gonna make something. And so they’re like, thinking about different ways. How does that information still retain itself within the weavings? What if you weave this in comparison to that? What if you add color? What if you start adding paint to it, but you first start adding tar? I’m like, I’m like, Oh, what if I did this? So everything is like the what is the what if? What if? What if you do this? What if you try this? What if you turn that the weavings into printed fabric, and you clothe the dancers in the material against the weavings as the backdrop. Then it becomes trippy, three-dimensional. So it’s like, you know? So I’m like, then I run. When I get finished with the walk, I go and I write it all down. It’s like, it’s in the book, it’s in the notebook. And just in case, I can come back and I come back and revisit and go try good time. Let me try this. Let’s see what happens. So, so that’s what, that’s where, that’s where the rumination is, that juiciness of getting something to not necessarily, it’s not, and it’s not what the intention was. Like saying, Oh, I’m going to do this and then I’m going to go show it and sell it. Or I, I remove the financial consideration out of making art. Yeah, I just it is what it is. You know, if someone wants to, if I can get funding for it, great. If I don’t, still, great, I’m still going to make it. And with found materials, it’s just basically me dumpster diving, as long as I’m still able to get inside the dumpster and pull the paper out, then we’ve got material. Then we got things that kind of make things. So I just don’t think of art as a commercial consideration or creativity. Yeah, that when most because you have that can lead to the wrong thoughts there, if you’re constantly, oh, I got them. And I think that happens to a lot of artists, that they have a tendency to see their art making as well. It’s got to pay for the bills the roof over the head. And I’m like, well, that’s a part of it. It can be but then there’s another part of this where it’s free from that consideration and it just lives on its own. Yeah? And if someone says, you know, are you selling your work? I’m like, Yeah, sure. And they give you a good offer. I’m like, here, I would rather you. Fallen in love with it just to give it to you and let it hang in your space, versus me trying to haggle with you over that’s $3,000 you know, that’s just like this is no, let me, you know, I’ll show it, and if not, it’ll sit in with all the other pieces of art, because that’s where all the dance pieces go. Everything I make for that’s performative, of multimedia. Once it’s done, it’s ephemeral, so it’s all packed in boxes, unless I want to revive it, yeah, which I guess I could, now that I’m turning 60, I kind of a retrospective.
David
So when you, when you’re on the walk right, and you’re thinking of these ideas, and you come back, is, is writing it down and revisiting it later. How you counter decision fatigue, right? So it would seem to me like, if you’re like, Well, what if I did, what if I had color? What like, to me, like, I’m pretty ADHD, so I have no problems with what if. But then it’s like, Which one, which one, right?
Rodney
Well, and then also, too, it’s that notion of putting it down on paper means that I can then go on to do the things that have to be done, yeah, because there is, there are things you have to do, right? I mean, like, I’m now at the station, and so I know that I have deadlines. I know I have these things to be done. So that way, all the all the creative considerations and creativity, it’s right there at my fingertips. Therefore I want to just pop up in the notebook and go, Oh, yeah, we’re gonna do that definitely. I just bought some acrylic adhesive that I’m really excited about. Like, now I can apply the paper to large objects and it will not move. It’ll never be destroyed. So that’s a kind of like, you know, yeah, I know it’s there, I know. Well, unless I have the time to kind of dive in to create it later. So yeah, then I can just move on to having a conversation about NATO. Conversation about, how are we going to film this, you know, this season 15, how are we going to, like, talk, because our station ThinkTV and CEO Connect are all public media connect. So I am responsible for art and cultural programming content for the art show for Dayton and Cincinnati, so southwest Ohio. So I have a world counting on you, yeah, pressure, so I have to make sure, you know, I give that as full, as full of a consideration as I can give it and that allows me to, then, when I’m done, go into my studio, lock the door, start making and just don’t stop.
David
So that’s a good segue in you mentioned think TV. So in your current role at ThinkTV, you’re a producer and Community Arts liaison, which seems like a great fit, dream job. How did you encourage both to get involved and like support the local arts community through that role?
Rodney
I what you know, because I look at it, it’s on my board, and is that, that I consider media to be, it’s storytelling by with any by any vehicle, by any means necessary. And it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s being broadcast. It is, I consider a conversation, just even without equipment and being recorded, that conversation is media, and that is storytelling. And so therefore, if we’re connecting and engaging and having a conversation, and I talk about this really great artist, even if it doesn’t lead to you going you, I hope it leads you to go investigate that artist. But if you hear about it and then you just see it again, like all of a sudden, they pop up in the Dayton Daily News, or you see them listed in as a having an event or a performance or an exhibition. Oh, Rodney talked about that. So as long as you planting seeds and nuggets of not necessarily acting immediately, but it’s something that could be opened up at a later date. Yeah. So, so everything is is, I’m one, 24/7, in a way, in a very strange way, and so that, and I’m okay with that, yeah, as long as it leads to people kind of discovering what is out in the community. And so my role is to, like, connect and collaborate with artists and arts organizations. Tell me what you’re doing, like, what’s, what’s, what’s what is exciting you, but you can’t find those things out unless you’re having this conversation. Yeah. And so part of my job is not just having the conversations on camera and on and in my own podcast, but also in person about out and about and so perfect job for me. It was like, I was like, this going, Oh, well, this is a perfect second act. I mean, because I was, you know, I was teaching and I was still, I was hosting the art show for the station, but just only in a hosting capacity. And now I’m behind the scenes as well and learning the machinations of how to put on television and produce media, but then get to still connect with people, engage with them. It’s a way, I mean, that’s pretty like, yeah. Yeah, I’m sorry I’m rubbing salt and wounds on people. Yeah, I’ve got the dream job, you know. I
Evelyn
So, I mean, talk about producing media. We’d be remiss not to mention something big that came out this year, which was a documentary that you co-produced about Bing Davis, an amazing, iconic local artist in Dayton.
Rodney
That was 18 months of my life, I was a game changer. Well, you know, it was really funny because I, like I said, I was not full-time at ThinkTV, and I was just the host, and Colin, our Chief Content Officer, who’s just newly appointed the position, called me into a boardroom. I thought, oh, when you called, get called into the boardroom. You’re either getting fired or promoted. You better prepare like you had a good run in The Art Show, but we’re going in a different direction. I was fully expecting that to be the conversation. He was like, you’re in the art scene. Like, if you were to do a documentary, who would you do it all? What would you do it on? And I went, Oh, I thought you were gonna fire me. Pessimist, don’t worry about it. It’s all good. Colin, don’t worry about it. And I just said, well, I had a couple ideas, and one of them was, like, no one’s really done a story on Bing Davis and Bing’s story. You mean, I knew on the surface, he was a brilliant man. He was in his 80s, his art is everywhere. I thought, this will be a really nice story. I think people would be interested in telling and being told. And so he took it back to the powers of be, came back like within 24 hours, and said, we are all in. So we’re going to hire you as an associate producer, and you’re going to learn how to be a producer and produce this film, and I immediately Google, what does a television producer do? Because I don’t clearly know. And so, and it was off to the races. And so it was like, but then we called it sort of like, we called it the Bing effect, where you mentioned his name. It’s like Beetlejuice, except it’s all positive, yeah, like you say, Bing Bing Davis, three times, Bing Davis, Bing Davis, Bing Davis. People give you things. So things happen in the universe. They really do. And so when we agreed to do this the next day, UD announced that they were they were receiving his archives. Wow. So it was like, oh, that’s the perfect place to start filming. Oh, my gosh, yeah. When the induction ceremony for the archives, and not even two months into, like, we were off to the races filming, and it was like, and then, when we, we start, you know, and we, we have to get funding for, you know, the before doing the documentaries, we approached the Ohio Arts Council, and we got some discretionary funds from them. We when we went to go print the one sheet that we’re using to describe the documentary, the printer says, I love Bing, he’s my favorite person. This is free. This is on us. We’re like, Are you kidding? Like, at every turn, everybody wanted to give us something, yeah, to tell Bing’s story. And so how could you not get excited about it? And so we were off to the races in the archives. And when we dug into the archives the very first day, there’s Anne Rotolante, who is my partner in crime on this documentary. Senior Partner in crime at the station too. We opened the very first box. We’re all excited about our notebooks out with our pencils, because you can’t have pens anywhere near archival materials. We washed our hands. We pop open the box. We pull out the first folder. It’s not organized. It is. It was like there was a letter from Bucha senior President Bush, senior George. W, George. George W, no, no, HW. HW is thanking him for coming to the White House and taking us on a tour of the exhibit at the African-American museum in Wilberforce. It was a handwritten note. It was wow. But there was also Nia, his daughter’s report card. There was a catalog from Miami University 1977 where, like, there was a bunch of invoices. There was a postcard from some fan in Alabama from the 80s, it was like, Okay, this is not organized. Holy crap. So we spent, I spent days like, if I go in there, and the guard at the desk always like, yeah, you’re back at him. I guess I am digging into Bing’s life, you know, just trying to take notes and getting to know his story, and then it just he his belief in his, his his his ideology was, it happened I was there. This is a lovely token in the folder. Shut the drawer, and he goes into the next thing so he treated every. Thing is all being equal. So daughter’s, report card, president, it’s all the things. Yeah, it’s all just things and so, so we, you know, and only to keep discovering, like, oh, one that he has artwork on every continent except Antarctica in a private collection or a museum. Wow, real, very real. He had a 20-page list of people who bought his art, and so you started going, Oh Johnny Cochran, Oh Mike Tyson, oh Oprah, oh Cleo lane, oh the bushes, have a piece. Oh Clinton has a piece. Oh, and you’re just like, okay, okay, all right, okay, so like, you just your mind is getting blown, and then you start to realize how many times he had been to Africa, and he’s just traveled to the continent, how many times he’s been in South America and Central America. He was in the Amazon, finding out, found out he was a part of a doo-wop group in 19, in 19 in the 19 late 1950s he could have had a music career. He was, we found the recording. And his father was musician. Yeah, his father was a musician. He was a singer and and so he comes by this, all of these aptitudes and skills naturally. But no one knew this. He just kept it to like, oh, it happened. He had a choice. He had a choice to walk on the for the Indiana Pacers their first season they were recruiting, and he came to watch the the industrial league basketball teams that were here in Dayton back in the day. And he was on that team just playing. He was just playing, just for the sake of playing, because he loved basketball, and he they offer. He says, I’m tenure track professor. We’re good. Oh my god, I got a son. I recently divorced. I’m good. I’m just gonna stay in my lane. He had a choice. He had an opportunity to at least play one season of professional basketball. And so all these things in his life, or like he published in 1967 that was translated into French. He wrote an article about ceramic arts being a true art form and not a craft, and it was published in France, and it was published in French, in a French art publication.
David
That’s wild. I mean, yeah,
Rodney
all in the same boxes to 148 boxes I had to sift through to find his life and start filming.
David
We were talking before we hit record, like we were just talking about, like, almost every scene of the documentary could be its own documentary, right? There’s just layer after layer and story after story.
Rodney
We could have told it six part. It could have been easiest part, yeah, because he at different phases of his life, he always had these great opportunities, and he he even says in the documentary one thing is he wasn’t prepared to go to college. He was actually planning to go work in a factory. So there was an intervention, someone like the unlikeliest student interventions. And I was believe like he just, he just filming that taught me that we had to have an opportunity to change the course of people’s lives by saying, you know what you’re you’re bigger than what you’re settling for, and having someone say that to you, and then like and he was receptive to it. And look where it just kept leading to these things. Even his divorce was applicable. He in the 70s to he had sole custody of his son. That usually doesn’t happen, right? And so even that, he was a trailblazer in how to have a great relationship with the ex-wife, however. You know, it just blows my mind at every turn. This is his good fortune, and he’s always got to smile his face. Super easy. Yeah, super easy. He’s it’s just astounding.
David
It was fascinating to me the program, the program they put together for arts in Dayton, in the schools and
Rodney
Living Arts Center, yeah.
David
Living Art Center, thank you. And it’s rise and then demise. And someone says, like it, it could be just as relevant today, which is the thought already going through your head, which is like, Well, this sounds familiar.
Rodney
Sounds very familiar. This whole notion of tea. You know, his phrase is, that’s where he learned to stop teaching her and start teaching people, yeah, and teaching through their humanity. And so he was being they were being accused of being Marxist and communist, like this leftist agenda. Oh, you’re indoctrinating children all to be nice to each other. Okay? And so there’s, like, our sheer collective humanity, and he was doing that before I called him the OG, like he was the OG before everyone like, like, yeah, you jumped on the bandwagon. But he really did it way before you ever even considered as a thought. And that was his mindset. And he. Kind of ran with it. I mean, Living Art Center was pretty for Dayton was pretty,
David
That, to me, is that was, I didn’t know anything about like that was just incredible.
Rodney
And it and a lot of older artists say old, but older artists in town who went through that process still live here. They’re still practicing. Artists are real fans of art because of the Living Arts Center experience. And it was pretty impactful. It was, and what we discovered was that By every metric, it was incredibly successful. Like everyone, all the stakeholders agreed that this was phenomenal. They had people coming from other countries to observe it, to replicate it in other countries. Wow, yeah, yeah, and this Dayton decided to go a different direction.
Evelyn
That’s when the tears start to spring up in the documentary, yeah?
Rodney
Like, you’re like, Oh, we miss so much, but the gain we did have for a brief shining moment, and its influence and its impact is still here. And so that was to me, that was and that he still, if there was any regret in his heart, that was, that’s the one thing that got away from him that he knew was could really indeed have changed the world in an incredible, impactful way, and is cut short by small-mindedness. And so he never stops. He still talks about it. And so we’re trying to, like, I think people have, kind of, in small ways, have adopted that philosophy of humanity first, and everything they do with their creativity in our town, and that’s makes my job that much easier to tell the stories with ThinkTV.
David
So yeah, well, and much like Bing, you are passionate about lifting up the next generation of artists in the community, right? And talk about how you see the potential of upcoming artists, be that performing arts, visual arts, you know, you name it, the community and individual artists and how, how they engage in the dynamic of community. Here talk about what you see and what excites you about that.
Rodney
Well, you know, what excites me about it is the fact that it’s unusual for a city or community this size to have this much creativity, yeah, and I mean, when we talk about creativity, we talk about, like the abilities in every field, writing, dancing, filmmaking, visual arts, just Music. I mean, all genres of music, right? I mean, we’re not talking just classical, we’re talking rock, pop, funk, funk. I mean, I mean absolutely and so this, this idea that a community, and not once does our community go arts, they’re like, they go, Oh, do you know so and so? Oh, oh, have you seen because it’s just a part of our community. It’s a part of our DNA, and it has always been here. I mean, I mean, I wasn’t. I was born and raised here, so, like my parents were they. They were part of the great migration from the South to the North. And so I know no other place. And so I am really feel like this place just kind of opened something up in my DNA by being born here. And it just not once did the teacher say, Don’t do that. You should go try to get a job in a factory or no, it was like, make art. And so I see that everywhere. I see that the fact that there’s and it’s a constant supply, we’re not running out of the talent. I mean, it’s like, well, I guess we’ll have the art show until I turn 90. So this is, I’m never gonna run out of gas. I’m never gonna run out of story ideas, because the talent is here, and it’s it is so foster I mean, they’re jealous in Columbus of how much talent we have here in Dayton, Ohio artistically. And so I by telling the stories, I also want to encourage people support local artists. Support your child if they want to be an artist. It is not outside the realm of possibility. Yeah, and we’ve got all the living examples, even not living examples, of artists who have done incredibly well. And we have to redefine what success is. Is success always about money? I mean, I do love a lovely pair of pants that are nice and patterny. I mean, I love high fashion, you know, your head good thing. You know, I’m kind of into, you know, love my shoes, but, but I recognize that’s only a part of the experience of being on this planet, enjoying the breath is like, it’s much more interesting to be in a room with other artists as they’re jonesing on their creative process, or your or your bike. Yourself in your studio space, creating and kind of fermenting these ideas, or dancing with a group of people and creating movement bodies in space it, yeah, that’s that’s a thrilling it’s throwing you’re alive. It’s about that aliveness and so and so. If I can help people see how vibrant that is and that you should be proud of the community that you live in, that it has all of this. I’m all in. I’m going to, I’m going to, I don’t ever fall asleep on Southwest Ohio as like, you know, Ohio is the seventh populist state in the country, and we are punching far above our weight here in Dayton, Ohio. So this validates the fact that Dayton is pretty, pretty, pretty, freaking amazing, pretty amazing. It’s amazing. And don’t, and don’t, not say that about right? Because I always tell people, like, where do you think these artists in New York and LA come from? They weren’t born there. They come from the Midwest. All for the Midwest. Well,
David
I think what I love too, is you said it, and I think you embody it as much as anyone. But it’s, it’s a city where, you know, hey, what do you do? People are a curious about other people, and as soon as they find out, they’re like, Oh, do you know that? Like, Well, I gotta introduce you to that. Like, it’s a place where people want to connect with one another, but also want to make connections. Like, across the community, absolutely, that happens all the time, and it doesn’t happen everywhere.
Rodney
And no, no, there are people who just kind of protect or silo, you know, you know. And so here we’re just like, okay, come on in. Like the water is fine, you know. Like, you like. And so when you can have that level of connectivity. It just speaks well of what the possibilities are for this community to really keep going this way, going upwards, as opposed to kind of settling we could easily have settled for. I think it’s a false narrative that we’re a rust belt city, because we’re not. I think we’re partially, I think that’s a DNA, but it’s not, but it’s not all of it, and so, and I think that that is another factor and and that, and in telling why, why, I want to tell the story about this community from the Arts and Cultures perspective, because I think that’s what makes us different as well.
David
And it’s well, and it’s well, and it’s like, it’s like, the hero’s journey in any story or whatever, like, it’s not interesting if there’s not downs with the ups, right? And
Rodney
absolutely, there’s, it’s, it’s, it’s very complex. It’s not, I’m not Pollyanna-ish, in that belief that, oh, everything’s wonderful. There are challenges. There are it is, it is, yes, I get it as an art maker. You do struggle. I get it as just regular human beings, we all struggle, but in that struggle, there’s also opportunities for I can consider great beauty, and so don’t, don’t wallow in the suffering, because there can, you know, yes, there’s dark when there’s there’s all there’s never perpetual darkness.
David
Yeah, and rust has experience, right? And it can be re crafted and shined and polished into something else.
Rodney
It can also be scraped off, and, yes, with other materials, and turned into paint. I mean, there are things you can do with rust. And so there’s an opportunity to take our story and our narrative and tell it in a different way. There’s different instead of it being a a story of decline, it could be a story of rebirth and reinvention, and that’s kind of where I come from with it, in that sense of I don’t believe in I I’m not, like I said, Not pollyannish. I get, I get? We all live and then we die. I get, I understand the basic mortality train. However, what we do in that and at time, the amount we’re allow allocated, can be amazing, and why not? Why would you settle for mediocre or average? Why do you settle for, like, uh, tired I’m tired all the time. So whatever I mean, it’s kind of and I love my parents, who were workaholics, and that’s where another treat in their workaholics is that they worked long time. My parents both worked in their jobs and said they were for 34, 37 years, to the point where they were like, please don’t retire. And I’m like, they were like, No, we need to. We’re done, you know, because they just believed in get the job done. Do your best. Do the best job you can be. That was always instilled in us. And so therefore, why not?
Evelyn
Yeah, that’s the theme of the day, is, why not?
Rodney
Come on people, and that’s art. Yeah, I always in my walks with that, like, see art, make art, inspire people to make art, support art. That’s how I end it every time, like always, because that’s what I do now. This is it, like I said, this is the second half of my life. There’s no it was, it’s. A magical, interesting wouldn’t trade it for anything in a world 60 years and let’s see what’s what’s left, and what I can do with it.
Evelyn
That is a perfect segue to our last question, which is one that we ask all of our guests, okay? And it’s, what’s the future you want to create in Dayton?
Rodney
I want us to be the Arts Capital of the Midwest. That’s what I want Dayton to be. I want people to like talk about us in the New York Times and Art News and The London Times. Dayton this cradle of creativity in the middle of America — who knew? And I want them to be astounded and amazed at every turn that more keeps coming out, more people like how I want them to guess, like, try to figure it out, and we’re like, we don’t tell them the secret, we just show them that we are freaking brilliant, awesome.
David
I love that so much.
Rodney
That’s what I want for us.
Evelyn
Yep, I love it. I see that future.
David
Let’s make it happen.
Rodney
It’s happening now we’re doing it with this podcast.
Evelyn
Well thank you so much, Rodney, for joining us today. We really appreciate it.
Rodney
Totally, my pleasure. Thank you guys. I feel like I’m known. I feel like I just did the Colbert Report. I feel like I’ve been known. You didn’t ask me about my favorite sandwich, which is fine.
Evelyn
What is it?
Rodney
Tony and Pete’s turkey, turkey pesto,
Evelyn
Brilliant.
Rodney
Hands down. That’s the one sandwich. That’s it. I’m done.
David
I think there’s half of one in the fridge from yesterday.
Rodney
Oh, don’t do that to me, I’m going to Tony and Pete tomorrow. I’m coming, Tony & Pete’s!
David
That’s awesome.
Evelyn
Thanks, Rodney.
Rodney
Thank you.
